Charismatic communities flourish, although their close relation with Protestantism is well known. Why is the Catholic Church in Poland so powerfully developing a movement that is built on its own non-sacramental structure? This is what Fr. prof. Paweł Bortkiewicz TChr speaks about in an interview with PCh24.pl.
Paweł Chmielewski: Last weekend, about 20,000 people gathered in Krakow at the “Glory to Him” event, a charismatic worship meeting. There were bishops, even nuncio... Many comments online: Catholicism is alive! Is specified meetings truly evidence of this?
Prof. Paweł Bortkiewicz TChr: I myself participated in various spectacular events, especially in meetings in Lednica. Of course, I was impressed by them, but I was always aware that it would take continuity. This can't be a one-time event. The large events, although having their influence, are besides highly shallow and superficial.
However, enthusiasts argue that since so many people are coming, we are faced with a large phenomenon and a demonstration of the vitality of Catholicism.
Rather, there is simply a sign of a crisis of Catholicism. Catholicism is not an event. It is simply a happening – it is the reality of God's permanent dialog with man, of a continuum character, based on sacraments.
On the page of the event “Glory to Him” we can read that this gathering is about the announcement... of something coming. “We believe” – the authors compose – that this is the beginning of “the bigger things that are coming.” This language is besides characteristic of another large charismatic events. What would come?
We know that something is truly coming: this Kingdom of God we are striving for. Christianity is simply a religion of hope increasing out of the fact about the incarnation of Christ and salvation. Transmitting the belief that "something is coming" is, in the meantime, slowing us down from a sense of responsibility; it is in my opinion that there is simply a risky shift of accents.
Charismatic Protestant groups say that the "great awakening" and the "pouring out of the Spirit" will shortly come, which will cross the historical "restrictions" of Christianity. Why is this typical Protestant language, connected with Protestant ideology, so easy permeated into nominally Catholic charismatic movements?
The charismatic movements have grown on the basis of Protestant communities; and these Protestant prowess are very clear in the modern charismatic movement that penetrates the Church. I apologize for the autobiographical theme; but erstwhile I started priestly service in the 1980s, it was common in Poland that Catholic communities went to Protestant communities, frequently together with priests, their pastors, both in parishes and in academic pastoral ministry. It is incredibly painful erstwhile having the top treasure which God has left us – the sacramental grace – individual resigns from it and changes to positions more related to moods, emotions and own ideas about God.
Charismatic communities in the Church usage sacraments, but at the same time they have their own practices that look like quasi-sacraments. “The Baptism in the Spirit”, “the remainder in the Spirit”, various blessings by the leader... Is that any kind of parallel pseudo-sacramental structure?
That's the large danger. Christianity has the structure of the sacrament: this is the essence of Catholicism – we thank God for the mystery that has been accomplished and is inactive carried out in man's life, from baptism through successive sacraments. Meanwhile, in charismatic communities we are dealing in a sense with abandoning the power of the sacrament. For example, the “new baptism” indicated by the Editor... What precisely is he? After all, the sacrament of baptism contains the alleged “sfragis”, an indestructible seal. A fresh creation has already been made in a baptized man. What does a man want to do erstwhile he receives a “new” baptism? To correct God? Re-create a man? And if so, by what concept? For not according to God's concept, since it "improves" what was done in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism. The charismatic movement, like many another improvement movements, may be guided by the desire to renew what is ossified or withering in the Church; but there is no greater life-giving power than the sacraments give.
Charismatics argue that Catholics can draw from Protestantism due to the fact that if Catholics have “the fullness of sacraments”, Protestants are to have “the fullness of the Word”. Isn't that absurd?
Definitely. announcement the consequences of the deficiency of sacraments among Protestants. After all, this deficiency involves a very serious problem with sin. If there is no sacrament of repentance and reconciliation, how could it be otherwise? The rejection of this sacrament is besides the negation of 1 of the main roles of the Holy Spirit, of which Christ the Lord speaks in his words in the advanced Room: that the Holy Spirit will come to convince the planet of sin (John 16:8). The function of the Holy Spirit in persuading the planet of sin and leading to reconciliation is in this charismatic dimension, to say the least, minimized.
Great charismatic events only seldom mention to Our Lady. Mary is very absent from these movements. This must be understood as a large bow toward Protestantism. But can it be said that any movement in the Church is truly Catholic if there is no Immaculate in it, or if it is marginalized?
Cardinal Robert Sarah in his book “Catechism of spiritual Life” clearly indicates that Catholicism without Mary is not Catholicism. Mary is simply a sign of circumstantial Catholicism – it is simply the gift of Christ himself, who left us in the Church his Mother.
The defenders of the charismatic movement say that since people are grasping for it, this is clearly the request for time; the specified parish life is seemingly not enough, the request for charismatic communities and events, and whoever rejects it, is closing the way for the Holy Spirit. What does Father prof. say?
Hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit requires any sensitivity on our part. It seems to me that what we request present in the Church is an experience of authentic communion and relation between believers – provided that these relations are not submitted to the sacramental life. The experience at the stadium, where we feel close to another man, accompanied by large emotions, may be interesting and valuable, but the problem begins erstwhile it becomes more crucial than the sacraments. Then we are faced with a departure from Catholicism. In my first year of priesthood, I tried to average a certain charismatic community. I remember her leader asking 1 of the teenage girls where she felt better – being there with them or in the church. She said that she seldom goes to church, but if she does, she can say that she undoubtedly feels better at meetings like this... This showed me the large hazard of experiencing specified a charismatic community that does not lead to the Eucharist. I besides remember reading the "Seven-story mountain" by Fr Thomas Merton his disappointment with any charismatic Protestant community. At the gathering in which he attended, you showed up who wanted to talk and said that the Holy Spirit was telling her to show pictures of the vacation – and you actually started doing it. I do not want to mock or babble; the request to build a surviving community and relation does not replace the structure of the sacramental Catholic life. The community cannot be a value in itself; it only makes sense erstwhile it leads to the most crucial community—community with God.
Thousands of young people go to a large charismatic event. any of them do it for the first time; they are impressed by the dynamics, there are emotions... They learn about various charismatic communities, they may be curious – and go to a meeting. What about there? “Christianity in the Spirit”, speaking in tongues, interacting with Protestants... Isn't it a small bit that, in practice, specified large meetings service this very purpose, to inquiring young Catholics with movements that can actually distract them from Catholicism?
I full share specified concerns. These meetings are one-off events. So the question is, what's next? What does that lead to? Or to deepen your faith? It is hard to anticipate a deepening of religion in the Catholic Church, since there is actually no transmission belt, a transition from an individual event to a permanent Catholic formation. In the meantime, it is easy to draw people into the quasi-sectarian mechanics based on emotions and spectacular experiences. We must remember that despite the efforts of modern laicization processes, man remains a spiritual being. If this human space of openness to religion is not filled with an authentic sacramental relation with a surviving and individual God, then it is easy to manipulate man and introduce him into any dangerous niche.
Bishops are active in the charismatic movement. In Krakow, as I mentioned at the beginning, there was even a nuncio. Is it good that the hierarchs take care of it, are they present at specified meetings? This besides involves believing these things.
There's always a request for church care. If there is simply a community at the base of various charismatic events, which has authentic church assistance and is connected with the Church, I would be open to specified actions on the site of bishops. But erstwhile it comes to things increasing from the side, the presence of clergymen is alternatively to make things questionable alternatively than to form specified a reality.
Bishops are, but... what changes? “The baptisms in the Spirit” – they are as they were; Mary – inactive absent; contacts with Protestants – flourish. But does not the credibility of what is small Catholic prevail?
This is simply a problem with the quality of church assistance. This assistance looks very unusual in different places, besides in media space. The key rule is “by fruits you will know them”. The point is that the gathering of crowds that become “consumptions of sacred rites” (sic!) does not mean that it is about the life of the Eucharist, the connection with the sacraments of the Church... I think it is essential to put specified events in any liturgical and legal framework. They are not yet adequate in themselves, but they supply a certain safety that could limit full freedom in this charismatic space.
So what is simply a Catholic parent whose teenage kid wants to go to a large charismatic event?
If specified a young man claims that he does not find the satisfaction of his desire for God, he could theoretically consider consent. On the another hand, the question arises: is there truly no another possibility? Even if our household parish does not suit us for any reason – there is simply a problem with the parish priest, the catechist and so on – it is possible to find a church that will be orthodox and where the community of religion will be clear and alive. So I would alternatively effort to find with this young man a place where he will experience God, even emotionally, but which place will be real in the Catholic Church, alternatively than on its outskirts.
God bless the conversation.
Paweł Chmielewski
