Conversation with Dr. Diego Fusaro
The first question I would like to ask is: how can we illustrate to fresh generations that in 2024 Karl Marx's thoughts are more fresh than ever?
– Yes, a fewer years ago I wrote a book entitled “Welcome Back Marx”, in which I fundamentally stated that Marx is not only alive, but is more alive present than yesterday, due to the fact that we fundamentally live in an absolute society and totalitarian capitalism, which I call turbocapitalism, to separate him from old, proletarian bourgeois capitalism. Therefore, as long as capitalism exists, Marx exists. And even more so, as there is today's financial turbocapitalism, Marx is more alive than ever. All the pathologies described by him in relation to capitalist society are unfortunately up to date and are well: alienation, exploitation, unlimited accumulation and aggressive practices of neo-capitalist states, consistent with what Marx already defined as colonialism in his day. In short, Marx is in my opinion the most vibrant author we have today. And it is alive on both the economical level – k financial capitalism can be interpreted by Marx's prism, but it is besides alive on the philosophical level.
For example, the concept of alienation, dialectics and concept of the whole, all those topics Marx developed critically, borrowing from Hegel. It is so actual that those who wear only Marxist interpretative lenses present would be shortsighted; but those who do not wear them at all are blind – they are not able to realize virtually anything from modern capitalist society. Moreover, I personally keep a critical attitude towards Marx. After all, the word “criticism” is the word that most frequently appears in his works, even in their titles, and I think he would not be offended that we, too, are critical of his work, thus being able to keep a thoughtful, dogmatic relation with his reflection.
Perhaps we can agree that by appreciating everything he has left us, he would besides anticipate us to stay forever the critical spirit we are talking about in relation to what he represented.
"Yes, I would say that if we wanted to identify the 2 critical, essential elements of Marx's thought, it is on the 1 hand an icy criticism of the capitalist strategy understood as a contradictory dialectical full based on Hegel's interpretation, and on the another hand a awakened dream of a refined future, of a society little indecent than the form of commodity and exploitation that characterises present capitalism.
Yeah. Would you agree if we said that in the years we live, we have lost any sense of common good and how, in your opinion, we can overcome this alienation, and thus reverse the processes that led to what is actually a common good in the society in which we live today, puts not only the second or even 3rd place but almost the last?
– Yes, capitalist society is simply a society that deconstructs all component of the community. I did this in my book entitled "Minima Mercatalia, doctrine e Capitalismo", in which I reconstructed the historical-philosophy past of capitalism. Even at the philosophical level, modernity, from Descartes, through Locke, to Kant, focuses on the thought of a subject unit, programically individual, specified as Descartes' ego cogito, Defoe's "Robinson Crusoe", John Locke's homo-economicus. Today, more than ever, this practice seems obvious, even in pathological forms, in a hikicomori society, consisting of isolated and competitive individuals. Alienation is simply a basic category that can be found in Marx's philosophical and cultural baggage. Alienation, in German Entfremdung, means dealing with your own nature and that is what happens in capitalism. Man is not created to live in a single dimension of the exchange of goods and the creation of values, yet he is doomed to this alienating one-dimensionality. First of all, I believe that we should usage the concept which, peculiarly early Marx, developed in economic-philosophy manuscripts or, if you prefer, Parisian manuscripts, namely the concept of human nature.
Later Marx distances himself a small from this concept not due to the fact that he abandons it, as any interpreters claim, but due to the fact that he immediately accepts it, he has acquired it in his youthful works. It's a concept of human nature oppressed by a capitalist system. Capitalism denies human nature, and present apart from its humiliation and denial, it deconstructs it besides on a symbolic plane. The thought of human nature, the thought of the identity of human nature, is rejected in order to be able to ignore it without encountering much resistance. So I would say that restoring human nature – Marx called it Gattungswesen, the essence of humanity – could form the basis of a fresh critical explanation and revolutionary practice.
Well, yes, it would surely be... Let's hope we can experience it and see for ourselves. I would besides like to ask you whether, in relation to Gramsci's thought, we can say that Gramsci's thought is even more precise and appropriate if we look at what is happening in the West, compared to a more classical look. Would you agree?
Yes, with any reservations. Of course Gramsci wouldn't be without Marx. Letters from prison are a critical reflection on Marx categories. What is interesting about Gramsci is, in my opinion, the fact that it develops Marx's thought under the sign of the doctrine of praxis, which is based on his very accurate reading. As we know, Marx has developed various interpretations, different currents, more positivistic and mechanistic, more economical and fatalistic. Gramsci's reading is based on the concept of praxis and organized will. The basic thought of the Letters from prison is to form a revolutionary subjectivity that assumes that capitalism will not fall from itself as a consequence of interior contradictions, but that organized subjectivity is needed, which translates the transformation of capitalism into practice.
In his works Gramsci claims that economical contradiction can be removed politically, which means that only organised practice can remove this contradiction. Here in Marx there are indeed conflicting elements that can lead to both internationalistic reading of it, according to which capitalism falls motu proprio due to its contradictions, as Kautsky thinks, for example, as well as elements of practice. I think of eleven besides about Feuerbach, which Gramsci does not accidentally include in his records. So Gramsci's merit, or 1 of Gramsci's merits, is to make Marx under the sign of praxis philosophy. Gramsci moved in an Italian context where idealistic philosophies prevailed. It is Giovanni Gentile in Italy who read Marx in an idealistic tone, and Gramsci is in a sense the derivative of this reading of the philosopher of practice, but besides Antonio Labrioli, to mention another giant of Italian thought, the philosophical foundation of Marxist thought. So without a uncertainty Gramsci remains a fundamental thinker and I would say that paradoxically present there is simply a Gramsci concept, which the capitalist order has very well transformed, namely the concept of hegemony. Today, capitalism manages to establish hegemony to specified an degree that it monopolizes information, communication and teaching tools to impose a capitalist symbolic order. So we can say that present we see Gramsci being metabolized by capitalism against Gramsci himself.
In preparing for our conversation present and reasoning naturally about the concepts of the common good, which in our society is increasingly forgotten, I have come to the curious opinion of prof. Alexander Dugin. He has quoted you many times, including your name as a mention point. What is your opinion about prof. Dugin and his attitude.
– Yes, we have maintained and proceed to keep correspondence and philosophical contact with Dugin. Dugin as a philosopher is undoubtedly a personality of large importance. I would separate the geopolitical philosopher Dugin from the metaphysical Dugin, even if these 2 elements are naturally related. At geopolitical level, I full agree with Dugin's analysis and the search for multipolarity as the other of the prevailing Atlantic unipolarity today. At the metaphysical level we have different perspectives, due to the fact that it originates from a more spiritual tradition. I come intellectually from Hegel dialectics, then Marx, Gentil and Gramsci. But beyond these theoretical differences, which are surely not secondary, we have come in various ways to formulate theories about certain common points, including the request to argue the capitalist system. The capitalist strategy must be opposed to socialist communism, which goes beyond the old categories of the 20th century. Today, talking about communism or socialism frequently creates divisions and can be easy silenced, even referring to the tragic experiences of the 20th century. However, there is inactive a request for a humanised society, as Marx said. It remains fundamental, and I believe that this is besides the belief that Dugin is preaching. Therefore, I have large respect for Dugin, especially as a geopolitic philosopher – I full share his point of view. At the metaphysical level, we have divergent perspectives, which do not interfere with our dialogue, in confronting positions that have different genesis and history.
Let us besides look at Italy today, Europe present and what is happening around us. The Italian constitution states clearly and very precisely: Italy rejects war. How do you see the behaviour of the Italian government in relation to conflicts in both Gaza and Ukraine? Many people have given Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni a large credit to trust, but as you can see now, being in Poland and looking at my country from afar, I do not see that she respects this crucial evidence of the Constitution. Am I right?
Right. Of course, the answer is already included in the question. It is clear that Italy does not respect this main point of its constitution, in which, among another things, the verb utilized in the Italian constitution is besides important. The verb “ripudiare”, i.e. “reject”, is simply a very strong verb that is not aseptic and neutral as can be “avoid” or “being against” the anticipation of war. This Italian verb besides has ethical and moral value. It is an open condemnation of those who not only wage war but support it. And that seems very crucial to me, due to course it is the consequence of the experience of the Italian constitution, which was born at the end of planet War II, at the end of the experience of 20 years of Fascism. It has a very peculiar past in which any values are fundamental, and that is social justice, freedom and the rejection of war. Now it is rather clear that Italy is completely betraying this basic rule of renouncement of war, not only in the case of the current government, the right-wing, neoliberal Atlantic government, but – as I tried to show in another my work entitled "Demophobia – present the fact about the West is this" – and I think I can say it besides about Poland, possibly with any nuances – that these are 2 neoliberal currents. They have their specificity, various nuances, but yet the hard core of neoliberalism and imperialism is common to them.
It is not surprising, therefore, that the current government of Giorgia Meloni in Italy, in which I have never hoped, is besides heading in this direction. After taking a closer look at this issue, it turns out that the handover of arms to Ukraine as early as 2022, which Italy immediately did, did not mean giving up the war, but taking part in it in any way, due to the fact that – even a kid from primary school can realize it – providing arms to a country plunged into war means participating in the war alternatively than giving up it. If, unfortunately, what happens is simply a climax or escalation, as the English people would say; as a result, we will start a war at all, the more Italy does not renounce war in this way, but denies its own constitution.
In Poland, the situation is very similar. Although there is no specified strong word in the Polish constitution as in Italian, it can be said that we have moved to almost paranoid Euroatlanticism, in which artificial threats are created to have excuses to fight them. Yes, we are in a very dangerous situation where freedom of speech is besides clearly limited. It is profoundly felt for us here, in Poland, all our viewers feel it, all the people around us. all day they fight to be able to choose, on the 1 hand, to be free and to live in peace, and on the another hand to express their will and view that they want to live in peace, in full freedom. It's not possible today. Everything we do and deal with all day, this fight against the system, is so hard due to the fact that there are fresh barriers, censorship, all kinds of restrictions that deprive us of our freedom, including freedom of speech, freedom of being what we want to be. We do not want to live in oppression and fear, in a situation where non-existent threats are created, non-existent problems only to justify Poland's accession to the war. This clearly causes difficulties and fear that we gotta live with all day. Therefore, the question which I will now ask you is almost natural is simply a reflection of what I just said, what you said. We had elections to the European Parliament. We all had the chance – those who clearly wanted to – to go and vote. What do you think the possible of anti-system forces is, and so those who are fighting this Euro-Atlantic approach, what are the chances of these forces breaking through in the European Parliament?
– I believe that the opportunities are very limited for 2 reasons: 1 of a systemic nature and 1 of a more current nature. The strategy is that the European Parliament technically means nothing, has a choreographic function, is simply a facade that makes the reality of the European Union, which has nothing democratic about it, seem democratic. I would even like to say that the European Union is simply a strategy of dominance of Europe's classes over the peoples, workers and the mediate class of Europe. Therefore, it has nothing democratic in it, and it is an integral part of the authoritarian and top-down reorganization of capitalism after 1989. On a more current level, I would say that the political forces of the neoliberal, "blue" right and the neoliberal "fuchsia" left are equally in line with the imperialistic order, and today's Europe as a full – whether right or left – is equally subject to the influence of Washington, imperialism. Therefore, many Europeans have not yet understood that their enemy is not in Moscow, Beijing or Tehran, but in Washington, given that Washington is presently keeping Europe in check. We in Italy have over a 100 American imperialist bases. I don't know how many of them there are in Poland, but I think they're not missing.
I don't know the numbers, but there are besides many.
– Well, we in Italy have over a hundred. I always usage this comparison: if Pericles' Athens said we had democracy, while the Spartan garrison occupied the Acropolis, no 1 would believe it. They tell us that we have a democracy with a 100 military bases in Italy, the same number in Germany and so on. It is clear that the European Union is simply the foothold of Washington's imperialism. At the same time, it is the first in line for those who may prove unnecessary to Washington, due to the fact that it is clear that if there is simply a war on Russia, Europe will first of all start a war long before the Americans, and therefore, in my opinion, leaving the European Union and leaving NATO is simply a fundamental step to regain part of democracy and sovereignty against the order of globalised capitalism.
Diego Fusaro
Yes, I surely agree with that. We here are clearly on the geographical level on the front line, if this conflict were to expand, and that is why we are afraid about it at the geographical level, straight in relation to the lives of our families and seemingly due to the fact that we are on the front line. What does Diego Fusaro want Poland not only in 2024, but besides going a small further into the future?
– Meanwhile, thank you for the chance you gave me. I want Poland fundamentally what I want Italy, France, Spain, Germany and all another countries of this large civilization, which is European civilization. it exists in the diversity and richness of its languages, traditions and cultures. I hope we can start over, putting back into the centre a large European culture: Descartes and Dante Alighieri, Hegel and Cervantes. This is the first hope, but then we should hope to make a revolutionary entity, which, according to the current state of knowledge, is very hard in Europe, due to the fact that now in Europe, there cannot be a revolutionary entity, given that workers are subordinate and so have no opposition awareness, just as the average skeptics have no opposition awareness.
I would first of all number on the ability to rebuild a multipolar world, and so I have large hope that Russia, China and Iran will be able to jointly halt the imperialist delirium of American nihilism, and this is completely independent of critical considerations. what he can say about Russia, China, Iran and their interior orientation in purely geopolitical terms. The presence of Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, BRICS is simply a large hope for the full world, which can besides confirm its ability to halt Washington's imperialism. If, as Bill Clinton said, the United States is the only essential nation, it is clear that from their point of view we are all expendable. Unnecessary, whether we are Europeans or Russians or Chinese, is the only way. A method for those who think they are the only ones essential to halt their imperialist appetites. That is why we request a planet where there will be not only America and its colonies, but besides China, Russia, Iran and all these powers capable of stopping the imperialism of the dollar civilization.
Thank you very much for your wishes.
Davide Carbonaro spoke.
Dr. Diego Fusaro (born 1983 in Turin) is an Italian philosopher, author and publicist. A supporter of communistism and sovereignty, a critic of neoliberalism. Author of respective books on past of doctrine and ideas.
photo of cremlin.ru
Think Poland, No. 25-26 (16-23.06.2024)
