Paulina Siegień: We meet in full tension shortly after information about The assassination of Donald Trump. It seems that the assassination itself, and above all the reaction of the erstwhile U.S. President, increases the likelihood of his winning in the fall election. What do you anticipate from Trump's presidency as regards policy towards Belarus and support for the Belarusian democratic forces?
Swiatlana Cichanouska: Donald Trump as a politician is an ambiguous and unpredictable figure, and his declarations of discontinuation of military support for Ukraine may origin concern. However, it is possible that Trump's attitude will change on any issues if he becomes President. Electoral combat and office are 2 different things. We all realize perfectly that the United States is not only the President, but a complex political structure in which many people influence individual decisions.
For me and for the Belarusian democratic forces, it is crucial that the US policy towards Ukraine and Belarus remains consistent and consistent, as it has been so far. This is about support, attention to our region, and, above all, awareness that we must win the war on dictatorships, due to the fact that this is simply a key issue for the future of democracy. I hope that people who will be in power in America will realize the importance of winning the war against the imperialist ambitions of Russia and Putin, and so besides with the dictatorship of Lukashenko.
Four years have passed since the presidential elections in Belarus, where, according to the data that were collected at the time, you defeated Alexander Lukashenko. In democratic systems, the word of office of politicians is about that long and preparations for subsequent elections are beginning. Aren't you afraid your political legitimacy will run out over time?
What is political legitimacy in a situation like Belarus? It's definitely not the numbers the dictator is painting. erstwhile I was in Washington, I emphasized how luxurious it was not to know who the next president would be. The Belarusians have no specified luxury. It is possible that in 2025 Lukashenko will organize another electoral ritual and repaint herself with gigantic support. But that doesn't mean he gets a social ticket.
In my discussions with my partners, we are discussing the elections in Belarus in 2025. I can't imagine that after these elections, if they always do, Western politicians will find that my mission has been completed, that Lukashenko is simply a legitimate president and will support dictatorship. However, the electoral period in Belarus may prove to be a period of increased social and political tension.
I know that in 2020 people trusted me, and as long as I feel their support, as long as I get hundreds of thousands of messages in which people compose that they believe in me and are ready to proceed the fight, I am certain of my mandate to represent the Belarusians and the Belarusians. They don't ask me questions about my credentials.
The question is, "What if Cichanouska loses power?" does not exist. due to the fact that my squad and I realize that we have no power. We have only responsibility, problems and challenges, and real power has remained there, in Belarus. She's being held by Lukashenko and his strongman. But Lukashenko has no social trust, and she will never get it back. People won't forget and forgive what he did. They will not forgive the repression, that he pushes Belarus into the hands of Russia, that he made our country a co-aggressor in the war against Ukraine.
In 2020, the digital Golos platform played a key function in information about the real election results. Is it possible to organise a kind of alternate choices, e.g. utilizing specially prepared digital tools to extend your mandate and opposition structures, including the interim cabinet?
Together with the interim office, we are considering and examining method possibilities for conducting a large alternate anti-regime run in Belarus during the electoral period. But I don't think anyone would want to hold an election online just to renew or confirm my ticket. due to the fact that that's not the job. Now the most crucial thing is to preserve this political capital that we have managed to achieve.
I am not convinced that our Western partners would like to respect as a leader of democratic forces any individual chosen by the app. Over the last fewer years, we have been able to build a structure, institutions, and global relations. There's no point in conducting a digital procedure, risking it all falling apart. Our task is to keep the current structure until political change in Belarus.
Yesterday we saw each another Tutaka FestivalIt's been happening for a fewer years in Podlasie. It is visited by Belarusians who live on emigration, but besides by representatives of the Belarusian national number who lives in Poland. In the discussion with these environments, the issue of education was discussed. Children of migrant families do not have access to Belarusian lessons, which are rather common in the east part of the Podlasie and in Białystok, due to the fact that these are lessons for children from minorities. At the same time, the process of dismantling the number education strategy initiated by the erstwhile government, the symbol of which was the prestigious alleged Belarusian advanced schools in Bielsko and Hajnówka. erstwhile gathering with the politicians of the Polish ruling camp, do you rise this question?
As shortly as the situation with the Belarusian advanced schools arose, we became very active in it and tried to convince the Polish authorities to keep the current expression of operation of these schools. I will admit that I do not realize why nothing has been done in this case, although it is not truly about much, and it does not require any peculiar investment from the Polish side. There are parents and their children who want to learn Belarusian, there are pedagogues. alternatively of an agreement, this issue is becoming more and more conflicting, which concerns me deeply.
For Belarusians in Belarus, this part of the Podlasie, which is inhabited by a compact Belarusian minority, is simply a unique place where the Belarusian language and culture were preserved and developed at a time erstwhile they were destroyed in Belarus itself. We should all be arrogant of it and show ourselves even more solidarity, due to the fact that our strength is in diversity. Poland can boast the support it gave Belarus, that it accepted thousands of political migrants from our country. And yet on the subject of education, the Polish government remains firm and it is hard for us to understand.
Belarusian activists are presently working on beginning a Belarusian school in Warsaw and are trying to convince the Polish Ministry of Education. In Vilnius, where I live, specified a school operates and develops, thanks to the engagement of parents will be expanded. There is so much request for education in Belarusian. I hope that this example will besides convince the Polish authorities and that we will scope an agreement.
Belarusians and Belarusians on emigration were actually cut off from the anticipation of producing fresh documents. The government demands that they come to Belarus for this purpose, at hazard of repression. A year ago, you and the Interim Office presented a draft passport for fresh Belarus to address these problems. How is this paper going and what countries are ready to recognise the passport?
Things don't go as smoothly as we'd like, and as we imagined at the beginning. We have not been able to find a individual who would direct the organisation issuing fresh Belarus passports. It can't be a political structure, it should be a separate organization, and her boss's position has a advanced risk. This individual will be immediately carefully x-rayed, possibly provoked against him. We've already dealt with a hacking attack on partners in Vilnius who have taken up printing passport designs. So even at the method level, we face difficulties.
But while I do not want to go besides far into the future, the organization has been established, and as shortly as there are first models of documents, we can show them and search recognition. This is indeed an urgent matter, due to the fact that we are watching the situation deteriorate with the legalisation of stays for Belarusian citizens. Being without an ID is simply a terrible prospect. Not all countries are as helpful and supportive in specified situations as Poland, which provides the Belarusians with peculiar papers to identify and travel.
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The fresh Belarus passport would be the best solution, but I am aware that we will be confronted with reluctance to recognise it as a full identity document. And this is not even a question of political will, and that there is simply a immense bureaucratic device in favour of issuing and common designation of identity documents, which is reluctant to address innovation, especially specified an different solution as the fresh Belarus passport. But we have no another choice, so we work, we effort and we are motivated to accomplish the goal. So for now I may not have clear affirmative news about the passport, but I am about its prospects in an optimistic mood.
In early June Donald Tusk published an enigmatic post on X, in which he stated that the erstwhile government, the Government of Law and Justice, by bringing thousands of IT workers from Belarus and Russia to Poland, allowed abroad agents to operate in Poland. There were then no explanations or actions that could explain what the Polish Prime Minister said. Do you know anything about that?
Indeed, many Belarusian IT specialists left the country and any of them settled in Poland. There is large tension between the Lukashenko government and Poland, but besides Lithuania. Given the situation at the border, 1 can realize concerns about interior security. It is possible that Polish authorities have information about people who actually cooperate with the Belarusian services. But these are individuals, and erstwhile we talk about Belarusian computer scientists, we talk about thousands of people and their families, and we can't all be measured with 1 measure. You cannot blame the full professional group collectively.
After 2020, Belarus left the best, most educated and qualified specialists who can make a major contribution to the economy of the countries in which they were located, and this applies primarily to Poland. akin statements by politicians have motivated people and caused anxiety. And yet this is forced emigration, and these people are facing quite a few problems. erstwhile they think they've already arranged themselves as such, and they're in a safe place, and abruptly they hear that, they start to wonder what happens next. Or are they gonna throw us out now? Or should we leave ourselves?
It causes constant tension. The government did not let you to live and grow in Belarus, and erstwhile you are in a country that is friendly to Belarusians like Poland and you get these words, you just don't realize what's going on and what to do next. I realize that quite a few work and quite a few expectations fell into the fresh government. Belarus and the situation of the Belarusian diaspora are not priorities in specified a situation. Nevertheless, we keep in contact with the Polish Ministry of abroad Affairs, with the Chancellery of the Prime Minister and explain the situation to them.
Indeed, the tension is very high. For good months most information and discussions on Belarus have been taking place in Poland only in the context of threats. There were any nonsubjective factors active – the judge's escape to Belarus, the death of a Polish soldier on the border, information about various actions of Belarusian services in Poland. Belarus is associated with most Poles as a toxic, threatening neighbour. In the context of these events with partners in Poland and abroad, do you have the impression that they inactive believe in Belarus' democratic future?
They believe due to the fact that they see our activity, they see that we don't give up. But they besides see that we request help, that we are not ashamed to ask for it due to the fact that we request support, besides moral in our fight. erstwhile I meet with the Belarusians on various occasions, I frequently hear that they feel forgotten that the planet has forgotten Belarus, repression, political prisoners. I always effort to turn the blade of this criticism back on my own. due to the fact that possibly it's due to our attitude that this is happening, possibly we're not trying adequate and we're working in this direction.
When I hear the question, why do you talk so much about Palestine and not talk about BelarusI say Palestinians stand with flags in front of MFA office and we don't. Where are our demonstrations? Why don't we go out all Sunday with our flags and our passwords? For Poles to remember and realize what we are fighting for – we gotta take care of it ourselves. Then they'll talk about us, they'll remember us. The political level is 1 thing. It is crucial that average people in Poland know as much about the Belarusian problem as possible, that they realize why democratic and free Belarus is besides in their interests.
If people are interested, then politicians will should be interested. But we besides request to remember that we are dealing with forced migration, which, as I mentioned, raises many problems – material and psychological. Many people are burned out and the Belarusians themselves do not always manage to keep in head Belarus, constantly focusing attention on the country and its fate. any of the emigration remains very active, any begin to “dissolve” in the societies in which it resides. That is why I keep telling them that we cannot give up, we must control ourselves and remember that this fight is our duty. due to the fact that there were people in prison who sacrificed themselves so that we could proceed this fight.
I know that the course of events is highly fast, but all the more reason to keep trying to include it Belarus. It is besides very crucial for us that politicians realize the importance of Belarus. In Poland and Lithuania they realize due to the fact that he is their direct neighbour. another countries should besides realize the strategical importance of free and independent Belarus. I understand, of course, that the focus is primarily on Ukraine. Ukraine should receive all the support essential to win, but don't forget Belarus, due to the fact that if we can't all take back our country together, there is no way that there will always be peace in the region.
You mentioned political prisoners. erstwhile you talk about this problem in Poland, you can sometimes get the impression that there is 1 political prisoner in Belarus – Andrzej Poczobut. But there are many more of them [according to the information collected by the Human Rights Center Wiasna is their 1392 – ed.], among them the combat lady's companion in 2020 Maria Kalesnikawa, presidential candidate Wiktar Babarika and your husband, Siarhei Cichanouski. Do we know what's going on with them?
Nope. At the moment, there are 10 political prisoners, held in a government of complete communication isolation. Since March 2023, I have no information about my husband, and any information about Masha and Wiktar has not reached us much longer. They don't let lawyers, letters, anyone or anything. It's a full void. From erstwhile information, we know that Masha had a complicated operation, and Wiktar Babarika was directed at dense robots that severely damaged his health.
The last time I saw pictures of my husband before 2023, he was skinny, looked like a skeleton. They're in unimaginable conditions. The government wants to hurt families, due to the fact that erstwhile you don't know what's going on with your loved ones, it's a large intellectual burden that you gotta carry all day. But above all, the government wants to break their will. He wants them to believe that they're going to rot in these prisons for the remainder of their lives, that no 1 remembers them. I very much hope that they are all informed through any channels that we are inactive fighting that nothing is over.
Do you manage to attract Western politicians and public opinion to the destiny of Belarusian political prisoners? In view of another events, are they no longer curious and empathetic?
Belarus has allies in the democratic planet who are constantly following the subject of political prisoners. However, I have the impression – I do not want it to sound cynical – that people are overloaded with bad news. They saw Bucza, they saw another crimes, only a fewer days ago Russia shot up a children's infirmary in Kiev. Against this background, the problems of the prisoners of the Lukashenko government fall to the background. Especially since it may seem that it is nothing terrible, that their destiny compared to the victims of the war in Ukraine is nothing.
Sometimes it gets in my throat erstwhile I gotta explain what it means to be a political prisoner in Belarus today. How humiliating it is, how you gotta beg for toilet paper or erstwhile you get 1 set of underwear for a year erstwhile you don't have a chance to wash. Recently, a priest was detained in Belarus, and then it came to our attention that the first time he could usage the shower was 2 months after the arrest.
This cannot be compared to what the Ukrainians are experiencing under fire, but it is besides not about facing harm and suffering. It is simply essential to talk about all these harms and remind the world, and my task is not to let the Belarusian political prisoners forget so that their destiny does not drown under the force of another events and news. Sometimes you gotta get that attention.
President Zelenski has late said that Belarus is simply a European nation and its place in Europe. Is this a signal of change in the policy of the Ukrainian authorities towards Belarus, including against the Belarusian democratic forces?
I see a change in the rhetoric of Ukrainian authorities. After the outbreak of a full-scale war in 2022, it was completely different. At the time, my precedence was not to contact the Ukrainian political elite, but to keep assurance between our peoples. We have put all our forces into supporting Ukraine, but besides to talk to Ukrainians and Ukrainians, to explain to them what happened in Belarus and why the Belarusian people are on their side, although the government supports Moscow.
After any time, friendly signals began to appear, a peculiar typical for contacts with democratic Belarusian forces was created, which was taken over by Ihor Kyzym. The rhetoric of president Zelenski has changed. I think Ukraine understands the meaning Belarus for the safety of the region and understands that we are besides fighting for the safety of Ukraine in the future. It is besides crucial that our volunteers show real heroism in the field.
In early July Belarus joined the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, of which he is very arrogant of Lukashenko. Do you think that China can become a kind of geopolitical weightset that will preserve the balance between Russia's influence and Western isolation?
I would not exaggerate that Belarus in the state that Lukashenko led it to is so attractive and crucial to China. Road and rail connections close, isolation deepens, sanctions hit the economy. In fact, this is our goal to lead to the complete isolation of Lukashenko and to deprive him of financial resources so that he and another officials of the government are punished for their actions.
I think Belarus was admitted to this organization due to the fact that Russia asked for it. Lukashenko can thus feel an crucial politician who has an impact on something, but in fact his government is present a tiny cart attached to a Russian carriage. It may be possible to exploit China’s influence on Lukashenko in humanitarian matters. We are observing this situation, discussing with our partners what it means and how to usage it. due to the fact that we're trying to usage all the means to get political prisoners released, especially those who are in bad physical condition who just die in prison.
Finally, do you believe in rumors of Lukashenko's severe illness and have any information about what names appear on the stock exchange of possible successors, as long as the government survives?
There is no point in wondering whether Lukashenko is sick or not. Just like there's no point in putting hope in all our problems solving themselves. We can't give up, we can't halt acting and wait passively for something to happen. As for possible successors, I don't know if there's a individual who would be able to focus that kind of influence in their hands. Lukashenko built the full strategy under himself and was very jealous of guarding access to it. But he is already creating a spare variant – he established the National Assembly, whose head he became. And the head of the Assembly has more prerogatives than the president. The erstwhile president's subject appears increasingly in the fresh laws, e.g. safety guarantees for the erstwhile president.
But it doesn't truly matter, due to the fact that whoever doesn't show up in his place, it won't be that the Belarusians say, "Good, he was there, and now he's there." People in Belarus are waiting for fair democratic elections. At a breakthrough, there will be only 2 options: either democratic forces or Russia. Until then, we all should be ready.
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Swiatlana Cichanouska She is simply a Belarusian politician, leader of democratic forces. In 2020, following a series of arrests of candidates in the presidential election, including her husband Siarhei Cichanouski, she became a candidate of the united Belarusian opposition. Data from the electoral commission protocols that were collected through volunteers and online platform Golos in August 2020 show that Swiatlana Cichanouska defeated Alexander Lukashenko and should become president of Belarus. government services shortly after the election forced her to leave the country, and then brutally pacified the democratic pull of Belarusians and Belarusians. Cichanouska continues her political activity from her office in Vilnius.
