Jakub Majmurek: What situation in migration policy will the fresh government inherit from the Law and Justice?
Maciej Duszczyk: In migration policy present we have any serious challenges, and the Law and Justice have simply failed to deal with any of them and has led to chaos. He besides politicized migrations, so that it was impossible to talk rationally about it. Jan Żaryn – Deputy Minister of peculiar Services Coordinator – assured that thanks to the dam that the government put on the border with Belarus, the Polish border is “preferably guarded in the world” and “no 1 will get through it”, but the fact is that the Belarusian migration channel has not only not been closed but has even grown. A twelve months ago, citizens of possibly a twelve countries crossed the border illegally, present data from border guards show that about 50.
But present Almost no 1 wants to teardrop down the dam.
I did not argue the construction of a physical barrier on the border, but not the 1 that was built. It is worth knowing that the border can be protected in various ways. At the border with Belarus, the government erected a barrier in the form of a reinforced concrete-steel wall, about a metre from the border line itself, so 1 that is easy to penetrate. This wall encourages us to cross it. Perimetry, or electronic control set by the dam, can no longer help.
On the border with the royal circuit, the same government built a different safety system, based on perimetric technologies and flow control. Seismic and motion sensors and drones let you to monitor and identify who crosses the border even a fewer kilometres from the border. The intelligent barrier is 1 that prevents effective crossing of the border, but does not interfere very powerfully with the environment and reduces the hazard of accidents. specified a control strategy avoids many problems that arise on the border with Belarus.
Like what?
The barrier on the border with Belarus is simply besides close to the border itself. This makes Belarusian border guards and smugglers able to aid migrants push her. Polish drones cannot reasonably monitor attempts to cross the border due to the fact that they enter Belarusian airspace. If the dam were set up even respective meters further into the territory of Poland, for example, Belarusians helping migrants cross the dam would gotta enter Poland and break the law, which would give our border defender completely different possibilities of action than it has today.
What should the fresh government do in this situation?
First of all, make a plan that will aid regain control of our borders over the next six months, allowing us to go to pushbacks, or at least very seriously limit them. due to the fact that pushbacks just don't work. Migrants have nowhere to go, pushed to Belarus will repeatedly repeat attempts to cross the border until yet they succeed.
So can he immediately give a border defender order: no more pushbacks?
Unfortunately, there is no way that border guards can just walk distant from pushbacks overnight. Belarus would have utilized it immediately against us. To get distant from the pushbacks, we request quite a few extra security.
The barrier at the border with Belarus should be supplemented by a strategy akin to that with the border with Królwce, allowing to monitor movement at the border. due to the fact that present we do not know what happens to migrants crossing the border with Belarus. Border guards pursuit them through the woods, which makes no sense.
With a appropriate surveillance system, the guards wouldn't gotta respond immediately. She could halt a individual crossing the border after any time, and crucially, cut off migrants from smugglers. due to the fact that present there are smugglers with cars waiting for migrants on the Polish side, frequently even buses and taking them far from the border.
Such a strategy may not immediately close the migration trail, but it will reconstruct any simple control of border traffic. To this end, cooperation with EU institutions set up to defend borders and fight smugglers is necessary. I say this with Frontex, Europol and the European Asylum Agency.
In order to end pushbacks, we besides request to grow our possible for taking people across the border, especially women and children, and to verify people applying for global protection in Poland. So, for example, grow secure centreswhere applicants for global protection in Poland would wait for a decision.
They besides request to be improved. At the same time, we know that, in the light of current EU legislation, a tiny percent of applicants will receive akin protection. Most will be returned to their country of origin. It is so crucial to improve the ability of Poland and the EU to effectively deport to countries of origin and transit people who are not granted global protection or will violate our law.
Pushbacks are besides liable for the humanitarian crisis at the border. At least part of the electorate of the fresh government will anticipate this crisis to be resolved as shortly as possible. How do you reconcile human rights with the safety requirements you talk of?
For me, 2 principles are crucial in this context: the decriminalisation of aid to migrants provided by activists and the resulting “zero death at the border”. 1 of the first decisions of the fresh government should be to decriminize aid at the border. It cannot be that activists from organisations specified as the Podlaskie Volunteer Humanitarian Aid or the Catholic Intelligence Club gotta number on giving refugees a glass of water or providing medical assistance to individual who has been injured, for example, in an effort to cross the wall, hazard being accused of helping smuggle people.
The second step should be to reconstruct fundamental trust between border guards and another services and activists. Because, regardless of the fact that the applicable services have a work to defender the border and should be supported in this, NGOs should besides have area for humanitarian aid. There are besides people in activistic environments who realize the request for security; there is simply a common ground for action. This will lead to the "zero death at the border" rule and will knock out Lukashenko's instruments of sharing us in the context of the border situation.
Is there anything we can do to halt migration routes where they begin before migrants scope Poland?
Some people illegally arrive in Poland from countries specified as Turkey or Georgia. alternatively of pushing them to Belarus, it would be much more reasonable to registry them officially, to process the application for protection immediately and to deport them to the country of origin in almost 100 percent of accidents. This would besides send a clear signal that the Polish way for specified people is closed and it is not worth trying to get to the European Union.
It is worse to deal with a situation like this: individual from Côte d'Ivoire flies straight to Moscow, from there by train to Belarus and then illegally crosses the border. However, the Polish border is an external border of the Schengen area and we should strive for our problems at the border to be solved at European level.
In Europe, ideas are emerging for EU centres to be established in countries where migration routes are beginning, where willing people can apply for global protection, as migration routes should in rule be closed as close as possible to their origin. specified proposals come from Germany, Italy, Denmark. Poland does not participate in these discussions, and we should be curious in them.
The Union is already communicating with the authorities of the countries where illegal migration comes from, for example Libya, on its reduction.
Yes, but unfortunately this frequently means communicating with very oppressive regimes. It is crucial that these agreements do not take the form of "money for detained migration" – on the rule that we are paying a dictator for all migrant he stops. specified solutions simply do not work, but they give dictatorial governments a tool to exert force or even blackmail Europe, mainly in the form of "give us more money or we will flood you with migrants." Agreements binding voluntary restrictions on migration, e.g. with investments or cooperation in the field of energy, are better. However, specified agreements must have a point concerning conditions in detention and reception centres.
Another way to europeate our problems is, as I have already mentioned, the engagement of Frontex. In the Polish debate, there have frequently been disrespectful voices that Frontex is only 10,000 officers and border guards will manage without it. But this is not about Frontex taking over from the SG the guarding of the Polish border, but about its officers getting to know the specifics of Polish problems.
Finally, it is crucial that the fresh government is able to negociate that the fresh EU Migration Pact should take into account the Polish specificities.
What do you mean?
The specificity of the usage of migrants as part of the hybrid war – which present concerns mainly Poland, Lithuania and Latvia. The countries of the European South, which are besides under migration force – like Italy and Spain – do not have this problem, migration to their territory is not part of the hybrid war, at worst due to the activities of organised crime groups. Meanwhile, the migration channel leading to Poland is co-organised by Belarusian services and the Belarusian State is utilizing it to force Poland and the European Union.
This particularity of our region has not yet been noticed in the EU migration pact discussed. And we should care if she's seen. Then the European Union could start utilizing all its tools – trade policy, sanctions, etc. – to influence Belarusian officials instrumentalising migration against the EU's external countries or any another countries doing so.
Morawiecki's government spoke small about this, in talks about the pact he focused alternatively on relocation.
I followed the European Council meeting, where the discussion of the pact continued. Tunisia was mainly discussed as a safe country, cooperation with transit countries, various deportation mechanisms. Meanwhile, we were talking about relocation and nobody understood what we were talking about.
Meanwhile, we should communicate with Lithuania, Latvia, Italy and Spain. See what is crucial to them, and support their solutions so that they support ours. That is to make a number blocking countries under the top force of migration, which would defend us from adverse solutions imposed, for example, by countries with no external borders of the EU. Meanwhile, I feel that the Morawiecki government did not enter the game at all.
Now we are late, the draft has been discussed by the European Parliament. The government should so find what is crucial to us, and effort to include good solutions for us in the pact by Polish MEPs – only they must first be well informed by the Polish government, which solutions are specifically needed.
The leak of the Polish border with Belarus was to be 1 of the reasons for restoring control on the Polish-German border. Will the fresh government win in convincing Berlin partners to give it up?
Germany itself limits the alleged pull-factory, that is, the factors that attract migrants to them. A simplification in benefits for asylum-seekers has been announced, and they are to be paid only on a payment card so that the State can monitor expenditure, and a shorter period of time for migrants to spend in closed centres pending the decision to grant residence. The asylum procedure is to be much more effective.
There is much talk about Germany's return on energy after Putin's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and now we may have an equally large return on migration.
This is crucial to Poland. due to the fact that the force on our borders besides stems from Germany being an attractive destination for migrants seeking asylum in Europe, due to the ease of procedures and generous financial support from the state. erstwhile that changes, it will be easier for us to manage our borders.
The border control remains in German's hands and they will most likely stay for a while. On the another hand, if Poland presents a comprehensive plan to reconstruct control of the border, then the government in Berlin will besides say: "Well, in Poland they are yet starting to take the problem seriously, we can work with them". But it'll take time.
So far we've been talking about how to defend the state from unwanted migration. Meanwhile, migration is and will be needed. Should the fresh government not tell Poles this and prepare them for it while besides taking care of a good migration policy?
At first, we gotta answer the question of what precisely our migration situation after the Law and Justice organization looks like. present we do not know, for example, how many migrants from Ukraine, who, after the expiry of legalising their stay of covid laws, are in the formal sense located in Poland illegally. So they should either be legalized or asked to leave the country.
Thanks to the findings of the Migration investigation Centre, we know a lot about the professional and life plans of migrants from Ukraine. But we know very small about migrants from Belarus, India or the Philippines who have received approval to work in Poland.
The policy of the outgoing government was mostly based on denial of reality. On the 1 hand, the government opened the labour marketplace for workers from countries from our exotic point of view, on the another hand, argued that there are no migrants in Poland, only posted workers who will spend here on the contract, for example, 3.5 years and return to their country of origin. I'm sorry, but who can seriously believe they're coming back? That they won't find another occupation in Poland, especially if they have the skills needed in the market?
We must so answer the question of how many migrants are in Poland and how many we will be able to integrate effectively in the coming years. So before we start talking about migration policy, we should truly talk about integration. We request to see the real state of visa policy and work permits before we start recruiting workers abroad again and make a migration policy plan.
Employers will say that the economy requires a continuous supply of fresh workers.
The State should not be subject to their pressure. It is now better to pay the price of little than 0.2% of GDP than for 5 years to pay 1% of GDP for the challenges associated with the presence of migrants that we have failed to integrate. present there is virtually no integration policy in Poland. So let us first effort to integrate migrants from Ukraine and Belarus, and if this works, let us besides open up to another areas. Labour immigration to Poland is and will be a fact, but responsible, including an unhindered increase in wages.
Is this integration policy not working today?
Let me give you an example. We have 380 1000 children from Ukraine in the Polish PESEL system, of which about 180 1000 go to Polish schools. That is, almost half of them charge 500 plus, that is, they live in Poland, but they are most likely in the Ukrainian education strategy – we do not know this due to the fact that there is no monitoring of the school obligation. They can just evade school duty. Which means that in a minute we will have dozens in Poland, if not hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian teenagers without any formal education. What will their labour marketplace situation be like? Their integration?
Sooner or later, we may not avoid receiving migrants from culturally distant countries too. The PiS demonized them in the campaign, shouldn't the fresh government prepare society for future multiculturalism?
Of course, an image of the problems posed by migration in societies The West portrayed in the election run was exaggerated, but it is besides impossible to close your eyes to real problems. I would not like us to open the Polish labour marketplace and the borders to migration from very culturally distant areas without a large debate. due to the fact that something like social cohesion is besides important. We, although we have Bąkiewicz on the 1 hand, and on the another hand anarchists, despite the war of the Law and Justice Party, are inactive a socially coherent society.
Again, integration policy should precede migration. Before we open up to migrants, let's prepare schools for their children's reception, see if integration through education works, and if so, open up more. Then we can start talking about what directions we want to open up to, how many migrants we request and what function they are to play in Polish society.
Are there any countries we can learn from? The right mostly indicates Australia with its hard border protection, the left speaks of Canada.
Both examples do not belong to Poland at all. Australia is an island, there is no real land border, it will never be under specified migration force as Poland. Canada has 1 border, with the states. Both countries are gigantic compared to Poland.
But I would alternatively point to Denmark. This is simply a Scandinavian state of prosperity, but it besides has very clear rules for adopting and selective approaches to migrants. Anyone who wants to settle in Denmark gets an inclusive way with compulsory Danish science. The Danish State can be very firm erstwhile it comes to deportation. The Netherlands and Germany besides have interesting instruments. However, we must make a model, learning from others, which takes into account that, unlike Western European countries, we have only become a host country for migrants in the last fewer years.
Over the last fewer years, we have accepted a million war refugees from Ukraine, 300 000 Belarusians, under migration force from the Lukashenko regime. It's a different experience than Western countries. We should aim for the European Union's migration policy to take them into account, and the erstwhile government has not even tried. We must pollute European migration policy.
There will be political space in Poland to debate all this? The right will not constantly scare Tuski who, at Berlin's command, wants to flood Poland with migrants?
There are specified topics, for a serious debate, about which space simply should be found. During the absurd referendum campaign, I said that our first task after the election would be to reconstruct the debate on migration as a debate on migrant people, due to the fact that it was very different in Poland. If we can talk about migrants as people and at the same time politicians will be able to show that they can tackle the problems created by migration, there can be space for specified a debate. If he doesn't show up, we can't solve the migration problems.
I would so anticipate the fresh government to have the minimum that it will discuss these issues with a higher level of society than the erstwhile one. And that he will find what the situation truly looks like, he will present it to the public and propose a way to the essential changes. Meanwhile, the coalition agreement does not even mention migration. It shows how hard this challenge is.
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Dr. Maciej Duszczyk – Prof. UW, conducts investigation on migration and European integration in the Centre for Migration investigation and at the Faculty of Political Sciences and global Studies of the University of Warsaw. From 2014 to 2015, visiting prof. at the University of Jena and Marcin Luther University in Halle and Wittenberg, and from 2016 to 2020 vice-president for technological affairs at the University of Warsaw.
