Jakub Majmurek: In a hard election year for the left You won the election for president Włocławek. Why did you win in what many of your colleagues in the left-wing coalition failed?
Krzysztof Kukucki: I had an chance which the left in Poland had not had in the last eighteen years – in the period 2018-23 for 5 years I was Vice president Włocławek, I gave the inhabitants of the city a chance to learn about the action and this was appreciated by them.
Therefore, in my opinion – I know that I am going against the current – the best years of the Polish left only before it. Working in the government, in the Ministry of improvement and Technology, I saw the substantive preparation and commitment of those who form the government from the left – it must yet bring political results.
The presence of the left in the government has not so far translated into good results for the left in the parliamentary and European elections.
Because there wasn't adequate time to do this before the left's actions became felt. Secondly, here again I will say something against the current, there has been a demobilization of the women's electorate, due to the fact that after the 15.10. election, women decided that the fact that their rights would yet be guaranteed was no longer a question of whether and when. That is why the left-wing run building the message around these issues has not worked well.
After all, at the legal level in the subject of women's reproductive rights nothing has happened since 15.10. It didn't.
It has changed that women hope that this case will be resolved soon. I hope so, too.
A lost vote in the Sejm over Act decriminating abortion Didn't your hope shake?
It's a small wobbly, but I think the key things will be done. Although the law on decriminalisation of abortion seemed to be the simplest to scope consensus and to carry out by the Sejm. But if the Sejm doesn't get this case done, then the left is in the position of the only force that crediblely guarantees that crucial matters for women are done.
Let's go back to Włocławek. In Poland, as the vice president of this city, you were associated mainly with the social construction program for inexpensive rental. You think he convinced the voters?
In the erstwhile term, I was liable for investment, external resources and collective transport. And I think the residents have noticed that in all 3 areas of the city something has moved, changed for the better.
On the another hand, as far as the Cellulozowa Settlement – an investment with flats for inexpensive rent, which you mentioned – I was curious to see what support for the left looked like there, among the people who benefited most from my policies. And in fact, in the circuits where the people of Celluloso voted, the support for the left was higher.
The program of construction of inexpensive rental apartments met with knowing of the coalition state with KO in the city – it was with the Platform that you had a coalition in 2018-24.
Not at all at first. Our first coalition with the Platform, from the 2014-18 term, crashed over the social construction program. The PO first formed a coalition in the city with PiS, but erstwhile it disintegrated in 2017, she sat down to talk to the Włocławska left. The coalition survived for 7 months, disintegrated due to housing.
A group of PiS councillors and Platforma then called me off as city council chairman, accusing me that “no sense” I want to set up a fresh plan to build housing by the city, and all it takes is that the city has a TBS. Meanwhile, Włocławski TBS was not even a classical TBS, a crucial share of it was owned by a developer, At that time, Włocławek had neither the will nor the tools to conduct any housing policy. Platform councillors were convinced that the city could at worst build social housing, but mostly since housing is marketplace and developer, and the self-government should not do so.
After the 2018 election, this approach changed somehow?
In the 2018 election, the forces in the city council spread equally: 8 councillors had PiS, 8 Platform, and so did we. So as the left, we could set hard conditions. We told Platform: we are ready to regulation together, but we will build non-social housing urban housing for rent – and without specified numbers as in 2017.
However, the platform was inactive not convinced whether – attention – they would be curious in specified apartments. As part of the compromise, we agreed to build the Celulozowa Settlement in stages, so that our coalitions would be convinced after the first phase of the investment, that they were willing and worth building further. In the first stage, we donated 288 apartments – a 1000 people volunteered.
Where did you get the money for the project?
Initially, we were going to finance it by issuing municipal bonds. But erstwhile we asked Bank Gospodarstwa Krajowego to ask for backing from the Fund, but we heard that we should abstain for 3 months, due to the fact that then there are changes that let to apply not for a maximum of 30%, but 80% of the subsidy. In specified a situation, the issue of bonds fell, 20 percent of the city's costs could easy be laid out.
In another words, were you able to finance the investment through changes in BGK's operation introduced by the Law and Justice Government?
Yeah, I'm not hiding it. But let me tell you an interesting thing: the local PiS in Włocławek was unaware of these possibilities. erstwhile I talked about the BGK subsidies for the PiS councillors, it was like black magic. The increase in the subsidy limit surely helped us a lot. Without this decision, Cellulose would most likely have been created, but at the expense of another urban investments.
We managed to build apartments from the first phase at the price of PLN 4300 per square metre under the key. On the adjacent plot, the developer offered flats in the improvement state for 5500 per square meter. This difference was due, inter alia, to the usage of prefabricated products. I have the impression that we managed to unspeak this method a small bit, after the period of the Polish People's Republic wrongly perceived. Thanks to prefabrication we could besides build quickly. 1 level of the three-storey block was created in a week.
How's the rent in these apartments going to the market?
In the first phase it was 11.95 PLN per square metre. Plus, the advance on heat – we initially established it at PLN 8 but then it turned out to be besides advanced and we could lower it. erstwhile I last rented an flat in Włocławek in 2017, I paid PLN 1,200 for 37 meters. So the offer from Cellulose is truly inexpensive rental.
Of course, these are not rates for social housing, but this program was besides addressed to another group of recipients: people who gain besides much to get into social housing, but not adequate to get credit. So they're stuck in the alleged rent luca.
So how many apartments did the city build in the 2018-24 period?
I can safely say almost half a thousand. precisely 432 on Cellulose, 12 housing units protected in the revitalized area and 40 social housing units. They were besides built under the key, built in a building with ceiling heating, which has a passive building certificate – so these are truly human conditions.
If individual wanted to come to Włocławka present and decision into a municipal flat with a favorable rent, how long would they wait for the keys?
If the bill I was working on at the Ministry of improvement were to enter into force, it would take up to 2 years – due to the fact that that's the production cycle of specified an investment, we were able to give apartments in 13 months at the end. However, much depends on whether the bill will launch support for municipal construction.
At the same time, we are changing housing policy a small bit. The Celulozov task met to any degree the needs of the residents who were stuck in a rent gap. I would like housing policy to be linked to the revitalization of the oldest part of the city.
Włocławek has a immense problem with this, I do not know if it is the largest in Poland, erstwhile it comes to middle-sized cities. We have been moving a revitalization program for years, but for regeneration to win we request residents, fresh social tissue. Recently, I donated to the contractor a construction site – a tenement home where apartments will be built for rent from the same resource as Cellulozowa – previously there were vacant buildings.
The second component of our housing policy is housing for a senior, created in cooperation with social real property agencies. present seniors are frequently trapped on the 4th level without an elevator, in apartments that they cannot afford, but at the same time do not want to sale them due to the fact that they hold the property for grandchildren, for example. I want these apartments taken care of by SANy: seniors would hold ownership, they wouldn't gotta worry about tenants all day, and they would have an additional origin of income. At the same time, they could decision to special, smaller apartments full accessible, possibly even with any nursing support.
The 3rd component is student housing – not dormitories, but housing for students for inexpensive rent, I saw specified a strategy work in Copenhagen and I would like to introduce it to my city.
Włocławek has a large population of students?
In Włocławek we have the State Academy of Applied Sciences. It is simply a public college that may not educate philosophers, but can educate engineers and people needed in the local labour market. I want to maximise the possible of this university, and that is besides what housing policy is expected to serve. Thanks to small, inexpensive studios for students Włocławek can become an attractive place of education for people who care about going to college from their hometown does not ruin their parents' finances.
We besides hope that thanks to the housing program for deficit representatives in the city of the competition, we will be able to keep the graduates in the place. For example, the Provincial infirmary in Włocławek uses this program – thanks to it it can convince doctors-residents to gain their professional experience here.
How akin is the policy to be repeated in another cities? due to the fact that from what you're saying, Włocławek has the other problem than Warsaw: people are leaving it, and housing policy is expected to keep them in place.
Here's another crucial problem. due to the fact that this difference between Włocławek and Warsaw is due to a mispolicy of the state after 1989, and surely after the 1998 administrative reform. We as a state have large potential, which we destruct ourselves, namely the polycentric settlement network of the country. Since the administrative improvement and the creation of 16 provinces, this network has been destroyed, focusing its inhabitants in respective metropolises, which is in my opinion a immense mistake. It is due to specified a policy that even a well-earned individual in Warsaw may have a problem with obtaining a mortgage on his own apartment.
We as Włocławek after 1989 at least 3 times had our wings cut. First as an industrial city, erstwhile we lost respective 1000 jobs as a consequence of Balcerowicz's reforms. Then as a consequence of Buzek's administrative reform, erstwhile we lost the position of the province, which active the disappearance of more jobs. Finally, 2 military units were liquidated, and the professional army has an crucial city-building function.
An example of municipalities specified as Pleszew shows, however, that good housing policies can partially counteract the outflow of the population to larger centres or at least partially halt it. I would besides like to accomplish this in Włocławek.
When you took over the office of President, you left a bill of support for the social building you were working on. What happens to her next? Has individual from the left replaced you in the government as the individual liable for the "delivery" of this issue?
W The Ministry of improvement has done adequate work to say that this task is almost ready and rather politically safe. He was besides negotiated at coalition leadership level 15.10., he underwent all possible interministerial consultations, I believe that in the Sejm he will get the majority without problem. Of course, I am afraid that no 1 has appeared in my place after 2.5 months since I left the ministry, but I have reports that the office is about to take over the new, very competent Undersecretary of State.
What measures are your task launching to support public construction?
He yet increases the yearly budget of the subsidy fund to PLN 10 billion per year – this ceiling is to be reached in 2030. present it is simply a billion a year, so it is far besides little. This year we are expanding it leaps to 5 billion, and from 2026 we are contributing all year after a billion until we scope 10 in 2030. specified amounts would let 20-30 1000 fresh housing units to be donated all year for inexpensive rental. This is about 1 fifth-one sixth of what developers are building. As far as I remember, this year the private sector plans to quit 112 000 apartments. specified figures would already have an impact on the marketplace situation, including the adjustment of commercial housing prices.
Unless the government "balances" the social building program with zero percent credit.
I do not have a good view of the zero percent credit, although for any time I thought both projects were doomed to each another and there would be no support for social construction without a zero percent credit. Today, however, our coalition partners are increasingly beginning up to arguments against credit zero percent. I hope that our task will at least enter into force first, and credit zero percent at worst later, in a modified version to the first assumptions.
And isn't there a hazard that local governments just won't be curious in building housing subsidies? You yourself told me a decade ago what your colleagues at the Włocław City Council thought about urban housing policy.
The interest is already visible. In April of this year we had submitted applications to the Fund for Payments of PLN 3 billion – so it is 3 times more than it is this year.
Local people truly learn from each other. erstwhile a policy is starting to work locally, the followers are about to appear – and it is hard to argue that projects specified as Cellulosov have been successful. The approach of local authorities to housing policy is besides changing.
Apart from housing policy, what will further specify your policy as the city's left-wing president?
As of 1 September, I want to introduce a 35-hour week of work at the City Office, and yet in another subordinate institutions. We will work in this word to accomplish the energy self-sufficiency of the city. Investment in public transport and green land improvement are besides a precedence in this term.
You are 1 of the fewer presidents of the cities connected with the left. Do you have a forum where you exchange ideas for left-wing and progressive urban policies? For example, are you looking at what happens in Częstochowa, Dąbrowa Górnicza or Świnoujście, and these cities Włocławko?
I don't think I'll tell you a large secret erstwhile I tell you that as left-wing city presidents, we have a group on 1 comm and we're talking there.
And does fresh Left see the problems of mediate cities as a party?
Me and the another city presidents keep paying attention. due to the fact that really, the country won't grow as if it could if we don't bet on mediate cities.
How would that look?
Some time ago, I held a debate in my city entitled "Can the Ministry of athletics be in Włocławek". It was a provocative title to draw attention to the request for deglomeration. I was then fresh after visiting the Dutch city of Heerlen, which is an excellent example of what deglomeration in Poland might look like.
Heerlen was a mining town for years, the mines closed in the 1970s, and the social problems associated with deindustrialization began to rise. However, the State decided to intervene. The branch of the University of Maastricht was opened in Heerlen and the seat of the Dutch ZUS and the Central Statistical Office was moved there. Today, the average age in the city is under 40, and it has become a part of the data processing industry.
President Biedron and Czarzasty are open to the possible of medium-sized cities?
Step by step. I think the Left club in the Seym is becoming more and more open to medium-sized cities and it is increasingly beginning to announcement that the planet is not ending in Warsaw.
In a city like Włocławek, the problem for you as a left-wing politician is that the left is seen as a very progressive force?
Włocławek surely has different accents. I think that the left should take care not to associate only with alleged cultural issues - although partnerships are not a revolution, but a standard in practically the full European Union - but besides with issues specified as quality of life or working conditions. In Poland, 15 million people work for a job, and many parties completely ignore this electorate, focusing on entrepreneurs. In this respect, I think Minister Agnieszka Dziemianowicz-Bąk works very well in government.
At the same time, there are more and more voices that the demands of the left in the government are ignored and that it should even reconsider remaining in the coalition under the current conditions. What do you think?
Outside the government, we will not be able to implement our programme, and this implementation of the program makes us credible in the eyes of voters – and that is what we request present as oxygen. But there are limits. And surely the vote on decriminalisation of abortion should be an alarm signal, including for our coalition partners, that we may gotta make hard decisions.
But I believe in the wisdom of coalition leaders. We should all take work for implementing the coalition programme for the remainder of our word of office. due to the fact that shortening it can open the door to the return of the Law and Justice to power. And then there will be no chance of fulfilling any of the demands of either the left or the 3rd Way or the Civic Coalition.
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Krzysztof Kukucki – fresh Left politician, from 2019 to 2023 Vice president Włocławka, in the 2023 parliamentary election elected Senator of the 11th term. State Secretary at the Ministry of improvement and Technology (January to April 2024), liable for draft laws on social and municipal construction. In the local election, he applied for the position of president Włocławek, which he won by defeating the current president Marek Wojtkowski in the second round.
