Katarzyna Przyborska: You will have very experienced colleagues in the government, but you will have the eyes of those who dream that it may not be as it was. Is this gonna work?
Krzysztof Gawkowski: The current composition of the government is simply a squad that knows how to run the state efficiently, supplemented by politicians and politicians who are very enthusiastic about the future and are besides aware of past mistakes and do not want to repeat them.
You see the past differently than the liberal majority that was raised in a free-market myth. The beginning of your credo was shown in the book New country – like another politicians with large ambitions.
I look at Poland from the position of my own experiences. I grew up in the late 1990s, erstwhile Poland was building a fresh part of its history, the III Rzeczpospolita began. I remember this time as hard for me, for my parents, my peers, my friends, my friends. It was hard to get a job, even harder for a decent life.
I would like to build Poland 1 where we will not gotta wonder whether to choose a occupation after 16 hours a day in 2 jobs, to live decently, or to choose a occupation after 8 hours, but without the anticipation of saving a buck, erstwhile it is not adequate from the first to the first.
Poland has matured to a time erstwhile she can afford a good policy, thanks to which Polish success will benefit all social classes jointly. Everyone should share their wealth, not just the richest.
New country – that's how you titled your book, to be built in the context to errors of the 4th Polish Republic? As before the IV of the Polish Republic Kaczyński to the 3rd neoliberal Poland, and the 1 in the context to the Polish People's Republic, and the PRL to the inequality of the II Republic? This may cost you to miss any achievements of each period. There is small talk about it, but it was only in the Polish People's Republic that illiteracy was mostly overcome.
I am opposed to specified sharing. I think of the country alternatively as a relay of generations that runs – I number from regaining independency – in changing geopolitical conditions, which we did not have much influence on. We are heirs to everything that has happened in fresh decades and even in the full last century. And we benefit from the achievements of each of these ages. We inactive usage the institutions and systems set up during the Polish People's Republic...
Just like the economical leap after the transformation...
And the lesson that Jarosław Kaczyński gave us, the lesson of defending what is important, the lessons of the importance of democracy. I'm sorry, but that's what Kaczyński gave us. He made us start defending what we thought was obvious.
So I look at the communicative in a way that says that we should not treat each another as Poles with historical baseballs, we should draw conclusions from it and effort to build agreements that will give us a sense of mission in the future.
I am arrogant that the Left built 2 or even 3 major social agreements after the 1990s.
NATO, the European Union and...?
Constitution. The social agreement which allowed NATO and the European Union to enter is simply a success which was attended by Alexander Kwasniewski and Left. And the 1997 Constitution, which besides proved to be a defender of democracy at the time of the populist, authoritarian phrase of Kaczyński.
Now fresh Left entered the government and is part of the Coalition on October 15. Is that a breakthrough, too?
We have something to be arrogant of, and I think this government should besides set specified large long-distance goals. due to the fact that we have ahead of us the improvement of the world, large geopolitical changes, and besides technology that will affect human life more and more. And it could lead to a large revolution.
If you look at the large things, you can journey a small smaller. PISA studies have shown that a 4th of young people have problem reading. He can read the text, but he doesn't realize it.
Of course, the substance needs to be approached comprehensively. Human improvement is determined not only by staying at school, but besides by social awareness, feeling of participation in the community, protecting the environment or protecting the defence. The government of the state, what the state gives the citizen, access to solid, power-looking media hands. So that the citizen has a sense of his own competence, a sense of influence, a sense of what is happening around him.
Now, what binds these different areas is digitalization.
This digital reality saved democracy, due to the fact that thanks to people having access to all kinds of social, network communication, they were not doomed to 1 signal, the 1 who wanted to put Jarosław Kaczyński in the head of all man.
Digitalisation has accelerated during the pandemic and war, but problems with supply chains have besides emerged at the time, No chips produced in Asia in the West...
The pandemic showed us that not only the manufacture that affects the digital or car marketplace is transferred to Asia, but besides pharmaceutical, the production of ingredients needed for the production of medicines, vaccines.
Kaczyński tried to halt globalisation, and that is evidently impossible. Let us not hope that globalisation will slow down, just effort to find Poland in it properly. Relations with the Union are important. Strong Poland in the strong European Union is an chance to lead the improvement of our continent in specified a way that it is independent energy, transport, logistics, pharmaceutical, health, to influence digitalisation, to control large digital corporations.
It was Poland and Hungary who voted against the taxation of digital giants in the EP.
Yes, due to the fact that Poland and Hungary in the European Union were a troian horse of change, and we were losing influence, for example, on the form of the most crucial legislative acts, which concern 40 million people like Poland very much on many issues.
Which is?
Digital Services and Markets Acts.Digital Services Act (DSA) Digital Markets Act (DMA) imposing liability and limitations on digital corporations, protecting network users. We should co-create them, not just reviewers.
I see you're not especially worried about the war on people with robots?
I'm a digital optimist. I am not afraid of technologies and automation, possibly even robotics, due to the fact that I believe that specified technological changes let man to live easier. The steam device or electricity was besides considered to be the devil's invention, while they made the work easier and lasted 8 hours.
In Poland, due to the fact that in another countries less. What if we leave the marketplace unregulated?
You don't know what the deficiency of regulation will do. Algorithms will compose themselves. Regulations are necessary. Only through regulations will we keep our earnings, we will not go into unemployment, we will work little and have more time for ourselves.
So, the most crucial man, and technology is to service him?
We request this one. digital technology in specified a way as to put into a man's life to warrant work for his life, security, what is most crucial to man. And of course, to share the profits of this market, not to make the richest profit from it.
Digital change has and should benefit all citizen. And services, but besides financial services, which are produced by the usage of their data. due to the fact that present citizens, all of us, are creating large corporate assets, including sharing their data on social networks. I believe that citizens should be given funds for making data available.
It's a revolutionary approach. Now Meta's offering to pay for not utilizing data for advertising. Or pay the data for utilizing the portal.
As in all revolution, there must be any agreement and a social consensus. There will be different concepts. Of course, the richest ones and those who have the most at the start will think that the most can and they deserve the most. It's not unusual. We know it. The owners of the first car factories besides felt that working there was specified an honor that they didn't request to pay workers anymore.
We're smarter about this 19th and 20th century experience. Social satisfaction must go hand in hand with technological and digital development. So you gotta look at concepts that are very revolutionary, specified as the remuneration for sharing your data.
I feel like there's gonna be a conflict.
It's not different for specified ideas to rise opposition to the great, due to the fact that they're going to consider it a blow to their interests. But eventually, in clashes with the interests of the biggest ones, the biggest social changes were built. I let all kinds of fighting for human interests, due to the fact that in the full digital-industrial race in the world, it is not crucial how fast we decision forward, but just how much we defend a man so that he does not feel lonely, lost, but satisfied.
The flagship of the PiS government was to be the car of Izer. It didn't work out. What will be the flagship of the coalition government on October 15?
Not production, but services. For example, in the area of digitization, Poland is already famous, and should be even more famous, for its service production alternatively than production. Among others, Polish computer scientists and Polish mathematicians. We have the best mathematicians and computer scientists in the world, top of the world's Olympics, world's rankings.
We should usage what is our top resource today. Poles find themselves well on the digital services marketplace as producers of software, applications, digital projects and various types of digital services that are produced in the form of human work. And this, in my opinion, is the task for Poland to usage the social capital which sleeps in services which Poles can design.
Isn't that a recipe for creating a privileged professional group? IT staff are already being treated exceptionally.
I believe that we request to build more educational potential, that is, to educate Poles in the directions that will lead to the improvement of the digital manufacture in Poland, and at the same time there will be more and more people who will work on this market. This will make the full country grow faster.
I do not know how it will be with this education, due to the fact that even if teachers get 30% of the raise, it is inactive very, very far distant for IT staff. 1 of the first countries to start digitizing their institutions was Estonia, then Ukraine, which developed cyber defence capabilities. What patterns would you like to draw from?
I believe that Ukraine and its improvement of cyber defence was built thanks to good examples from Poland. We have any of the best digital safety software systems. Polish military forces, cybernetic, are considered among the top 5 in the world. In addition, we have very highly developed specialists working in national agencies who deal with cybersecurity and cyperrealism. The virtual, expanded reality. We can be arrogant of this and make our patterns, make available to the widest possible social groups.
Optimistic and enthusiastic. What are your goals for this term?
Firstly, I would like to further make Poland in terms of covering the full country's mobile network and I would like to see the fibre optic available to everyone curious in Poland everywhere.
Two: I see Poland in the area of cybersecurity as the strongest partner in Europe who can defend against cyber attacks both her country and others.
Three: We should invest in the digital education of citizens, and digital hygiene should be as firmly embedded in human nature as that erstwhile we return home we wash our hands.
Four: I'd like to invest in open data. Poland should be the European leader in the beginning of public data. At the same time, I believe that we should invest very powerfully in the improvement of digital education and teach all Pole digital hygiene. Like all Pole entering the apartment, he instinctively washes his hands, so he should keep digital hygiene.
What do you have in head for these data sets? What are they to do and what are they to be a European good?
First, I see full transparency in beginning data. Secondly, public data should be utilized to make the economy. And we should be able to defend the data. It's in the interests of all citizen.
Is this and will it be a dispute with corporations or not?
Countries, the Polish state and another countries will have many disputes with corporations. due to the fact that corporations, usually in the world, over the years, have been earning wealth due to the fact that this area was not regulated. Today, we request to say explicitly that regulations in the digital planet are to decision towards the support of the citizen, the regulation of corporations.
This will be easier from the Union level than a single country. Will you take part in the elections to the European Parliament in the spring?
Nope. I am not going to run in the Euro-Parliament elections. The tasks entrusted to me are for the full word and the ministry's action plan prepares for 4 years.
I want Poland to be a leader, to encourage another countries to regulate the digital market. As a leader in the European Union, we will besides impose our reasoning and I would like to prosecute this in this term.
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Krzysztof Gawkowski – Minister of Digitization, Deputy Prime Minister of the Donald Tusk government.
