Conversation with Pino Cabras, an Italian polytologist, journalist, erstwhile MP for the 5 Star Movement, presently co-founding the organization Sovereign and People's Democracy.
Italy
Hello, and I'd like to start with 1 crucial question. In many of your papers you wrote about the structures of the European countries' dependence on, say, external decision-making centres. I mean mostly those Anglo-Saxon centers. How would you measure the current situation in Italy? Can we present talk of Italy as a sovereign state, or alternatively a country with limited sovereignty? What do you think?
– The past of Italy after planet War II can be divided into 2 periods. The first was an era of partial sovereignty of Italy. Italy was a country completely defeated during planet War II, but at the same time there was a opposition movement, Resistenza, i.e. the Communist organization and Christian Democrats who managed to liberate a crucial area of the country. In the end, a strong organization strategy was formed, which was a kind of balance between the fact that Italy was under the authority of the United States, so the occupying armed forces that defeated Italy, but at the same time there was a kind of folk force that was able to change social rights to improve the surviving conditions of workers. So I can say until the 1980s. Italy was a country that developed and could play a function internationally. The end of the russian strategy besides had its consequences in Italy, where we had a stronger communist party, for example, which in many respects was a social democratic party, but was linked to the past of Europe in a wider sense – Russia, the russian Union. And the end of this party, this system, has caused a large change in the function of Italy. Italy until 1990. were behind the iron curtain. After all, it was a little crucial country, which could not keep a balance like it utilized to be. The second phase of Italy's past began, in which Italy lost its sovereignty. These were incorporated into the Maastricht Treaty of the European Union. This was the reason for the failure of power and the failure of economical function in Europe. Italy was virtually frozen in 1992. And in fresh decades, the situation has worsened overnight.
Alien traces in the years of lead
We have heard a lot about the different scenarios played by abroad powers in Italy's history. For example, I have read many articles about the so - called book. Anni di Piombo, that is, the times of violence, the period of armed political terrorism in Italian politics. There were besides political scientists, authors who claimed that this period was someway inspired by abroad powers that wanted to destabilise the situation in Italy. I mean, like what I call Operation Gladio. How would you comment on that? Is it actual that Italy, erstwhile the communist organization grew stronger and there was a threat of Italian communists coming to power... Was it truly that abroad powers, I mean the United States, had organised any more or little secret actions to carry out all these acts of force and terrorism?
Yes, Italy was characterised by the presence of a kind of double state. This is an expression utilized by any scholars to realize the complexity of Italy's legal situation. From 1 point of view, Italy was a democracy with free elections, strong parties and large trade unions that were strong adequate to accomplish crucial successes in their efforts to improve the surviving conditions of the population. At the same time, there were secret structures that conditioned the others. They were linked to a state behind NATO networks. They were profoundly integrated into the structures of the state, especially military. They were able to influence political life in Italy through terrorist acts. This was called a strategy to build tension. This is simply a strategy that aimed at limiting freedom, freedom of movement that political parties could exercise in political life. So it was kind of an authoritarian condition for political life in Italy. Nevertheless, there was a reasonably strong democracy that could argue this presence. Politicians were so aware of the presence of these dark structures within the state. But at the same time they had the power to direct millions of people who were truly democratic. Finally, we are now more structurally active in any kind of external environment, due to the fact that NATO decides on the abroad policy of Italy, which was previously more autonomous in any respects. For example, the arabian planet was greatly adored by Italian politicians in the name of maintaining a variety of relations that were beneficial to maintaining independence, a kind of partial sovereignty of Italy. Then these foundations were completely demolished. This is linked to the function of the European Union, which is simply a kind of creeping dictatorship. This is an interest rate dictatorship governed by bankers and so there is no real anticipation of economical policy.
Two faces of Meloni
I see. Many people, especially here in Poland, were impressed by the political agenda and statements of politicians Fratella d’Italia and Giorgia Meloni, the current Prime Minister. I mean, there were people, mostly from Eurosceptic conservative circles, who said it was a fresh chance for Italy to gain more or little independence, sovereignty and so on. Moreover, there is besides the presence of Matteo Salvini of the Lega in the current Italian government, which was besides a kind of hope for some, say, Eurorealists or Eurosceptics, as well as those who criticized European mainstream. Is it disappointing for you as a erstwhile parliamentarian, a politician, but above all an Italian citizen, what happened after Giorgia Meloni came to power, after she formed her own government? Or did you know earlier that this would not be the sovereign government of Italy?
– Yes, personally, I am not amazed by the peculiar, parabolic movements of Giorgia Meloni. During the electoral campaign, it actually ran 2 different, parallel campaigns. 1 was aimed at average people and said that we request more sovereignty, we do not like this Europe, which crushes our independence, we fight for another, autonomous function of Italy, etc. At the same time, she led a parallel run addressed to powers, e.g. financial, foreign, laying down Italian politics. And she told them – in parallel, as part of this second run – that we will not change anything, we will be able to keep a balance in Europe, staying in the way that we have followed for the last decades. So it's kind of schizophrenic behavior, but it's got a good election result. There is simply a clear continuity here. We gag about it by saying it's Draghi's government number two. In many cases it besides has the same ministers, e.g. the economy – the minister Giancarlo Giorgetti, who was a minister during erstwhile governments and inactive holds the office of Minister of Economy, the chief minister, due to the fact that he imposes everything on another government ministries. So I'm not surprised. In Italian there is simply a word for it – ‘trasformismo’. Change of position to adapt to others. And this is peculiarly geared to temporary benefits, not to any long-term program.
How 5 stars went out
I see. You were a associate of parliament erstwhile the 5 Star Movement was increasing stronger, weren't you? You were a associate of their faction at the time. Well, that was an interesting phenomenon for all of us. How would you describe the nature of this movement? On the another hand, what caused this phenomenon to not become something crucial and permanent on the Italian political scene?
- Yeah. The movement was caused by the disasters of alleged method governments, very Europe-oriented governments, which were in a sense teams dominated by austerity programmes. They destroyed almost 2 million jobs. And so – the reaction of society was very strong to change everything. There were 2 political entrepreneurs, that's what I call them, a comedian. Beppe Grillo and a businessman who knew political issues, trends, statistical analyses and polls very well. It merged into a movement that said what people liked to hear about politics. So against the system, against corruption, more autonomy from an global point of view. A movement in any way Eurocritical, a bit Eurosceptic. At the same time, this movement was very easy infiltrated by another environments. Eventually, the deficiency of ideology, the long-term imagination for Italian politics was the reason why he began dancing in the tact of music created by the another parties. So we came to a kind of crisis. I left the movement erstwhile they voted for the same people they hated for a long time. Like Draghi. I refused to vote on votum Trust in Draghi. I was trying to find a fresh formation to fight for my ideals.
Alternative, right? The organization was called Alternativa?
- Yeah. I yet found myself in another group called Sovrana e PopolareSovereign and People's Democracy.
Beyond the Left and Right
Yeah, and this organization is peculiarly interesting to me. I'd like to ask you about her. You know, for a long time the divisions between the right and the left have shaped all European organization policies and systems. And if we look at the political agenda, but also, let's say, the members of the organization Sovereign and People's Democracy, we will announcement that it goes someway beyond the conventional left and right. Could you tell us how we have gathered people from specified different political backgrounds? Connect people from different parts of the Italian political scene to make a joint task without ideological disputes and conflicts?
– Yes, we may gotta fight each another in the future and have a common imagination of certain aspects that we have not yet considered. But at the same time, we share the same vision, specified as peace and war. The explanation of the European situation at this point is the same for people from different traditions, Communist parties or Catholic movements, or even right-wing movements. We say, for example, that the leftist parties have completely cut off their social roots. They fight for alleged civilian rights, which are dividing and very susceptible to an agenda dominated, for example, by liberal communities in the United States. This has nothing to do with the tradition of the Italian Left, for example, which was a very union movement. At the same time, we see that the right moves, apart from being critical of Europe, share the same vision, for example on the war in Ukraine. So it was easy to find a fresh position on many problems, specified as the pandemic phenomenon that led to very authoritarian government in Italy. Due to pandemic constraints many workers could not go to work. So we find fresh relations between different segments of Italian society and politics. They can unite around a fresh imagination that is now peculiarly focused on the peace position in Europe.
Italians About War
This is very crucial and this is my next question: in different countries we have a different opinion about the ongoing war in Ukraine. What is Italy's attitude to supporting 1 of the parties to this conflict? Are the Italians more supportive of peace initiatives, or are they inactive supporting the war against archetypal “evil”, as any present, of course, Putin and Russia?
– Despite the unilateral imagination of mainstream media, most of the population is against the war, they are against Italy's commitment. They are aware that this mobilisation on the Ukrainian side is unnatural. Today, even those parties that endanger the war and have previously approved many arms supplies for Kiev are carefully analyzing what people truly think about this war. I think most Italians are against war. all poll says the same thing. Even mainstream media, which are pro-war, cannot deny this reality, which is simply a actual reflection of Italian beliefs. Among the average Italians, opposition to war dominates.
Italian tradition of dialogue
In the past, we have talked about any Italian politicians and their good relations with the Kremlin. I mean, of course, the late Silvio Berlusconi, who, in any case, seemed to have good individual contacts with Vladimir Putin. But this is besides Matteo Salvini, the current Deputy Prime Minister to whom notabene any close ties to Russia and any environments in Russia were alleged. Do you think there is an Italian politician who could mediate negotiations in this conflict and who could play any function in ending this war?
– Today, most politicians are influenced by strong emotions about this war, which prevent discussion in Europe. So it is very hard to find courage and courage to fight the mainstream. Nevertheless, they have a tradition to which they can appeal. Just look back and look at the attitude of Italian politicians for 7 decades after planet War II. Even during the Cold War, even in moments of very acute confrontation between the West and the East, as we utilized to say, Italy managed to build, for example, the automotive manufacture of the russian Union and sign crucial contracts for gas supply. This was achieved through trade relations which were very useful for peaceful reasons. So we have this tradition. We should be brave. I think that's the basic condition. And that means fighting for a stronger movement, increasingly focused on the quest for peace.
By the way, I would remind you that in Poland besides you had a large share in the creation of our automotive industry, due to the fact that Fiat was, of course, the main car utilized here, in socialist times, in PRL. So it was a close cooperation not only with the russian Union, but with the full east bloc.
– My first car was Fiat 126P from Poland.
Yes, in the past it was the most popular car in Poland.
– My fiancée utilized to call him a box.
Chiesa’s Heritage
Yes, exactly. And my last question about the level of cognition in Italy about the russian area, let's say, what is happening in Ukraine now in the context of this conflict. We had a common friend who unfortunately died, I mean Giuliatto Chiesa. Are there experts, journalists, political scientists in Italy who have as extended cognition of the area of the russian and east Europe as Giuliatto?
– Giuliatto was for a time the best Western correspondent in Moscow. He proved very first in looking at the russian Union crisis and the advisory period. He wrote very interesting books that described very well what was to happen in Russia. So it was individual we can only imitate. However, I can say that there is simply a fresh generation of young journalists who in a way inspired the videos of Giuliatto Chiesa. They have read all his books and are now able to interpret what is happening in Europe. Unfortunately, they're not in the biggest newsrooms. They're not in the large regular newspapers. At the same time, however, they add common sense to a increasing number of people who are not very trusting in mainstream media.
I see. Pino, thank you very much for your time. I hope we can inactive talk about Italy, due to the fact that we truly request more...
– And speaking of Poland, this is simply a fundamental country for peace. Anytime, I'm ready. So let us think about the topics of our future discussions.
Matthew Piskorski spoke
Interview video version available on channel Against the Censur.
